Processador Arm for PC (Qualcomm 8cx 7nm)

[muddymind]

Sendo o windows 10 ARM ainda meio verde não vejo muito problema em obrigar a saltar para o 11 (que tem upgrade grátis).

 

[Nemesis11]

Apareceu mais um score GeekBench 5, de algo da Lenovo com um "Qualcomm Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3", com 8 Cores e detecta 2.7 Ghz de Clock:

https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/10622455

Score dos AMD Ryzen 7 5700U:

https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-7-5700u

Dependendo do TDP, pode ser um Score relativamente bom. A nível de Score total Single e Multi Core, é +/- o mesmo do Ryzen 5700U.

 

[Dark Kaeser]

Bom ainda não é o Gen3, mas também já começa a parecer o roadmap da Intel, já não se entende nada

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1709...pdragon-8-gen-1-flagship-soc-for-2022-devices


Mas agora surgiram rumores que haverá um G3x para uma consola portátil da Razer (base é o 8 Gen1?)

e ainda haverá um 7cx3 e o tal 8 Gen3, mas este último a 5nm?!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465678793461448705

 

[Nemesis11]

Parece que o 8cx Gen3 foi anunciado:

Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3​

The performance uplift in the Snapdragon 8cx is significant not only because Qualcomm is competing with Intel and AMD in the Windows PC space, but also because Apple has shown that it’s possible to make ARM-based chips that aren’t just competitive, but which can also run circles around Intel chips in terms of performance-per-watt.

Qualcomm’s 2nd-gen Snapdragon 8cx chips were also a pretty modest update over the 1st-gen, which means that the platform is overdue for a serious performance boost.

According to Qualcomm the Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3 also brings a 60% boost in graphics performance and a Qualcomm Spectra image signal processor with support for up to a 4K HDR camera, up to 4 cameras, and 15% faster launching of the camera for Zoom or other video conferencing tasks.

• 4 x Cortex-X1 CPU cores @ 3 GHz
• 4 x Cortex-A78 cores @ 2.4 GHz
• Adreno 69x series graphics
• Spectra 395 ISP
• Adreno 665 video processing unit
• Adreno1199 display processing unit

https://liliputing.com/2021/12/qual...-snapdragon-7c-chips-for-laptops-tablets.html

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/qualcomms-first-5nm-pc-chip-8cx-gen-3-is-coming-next-year

Parece que irá usar Samsung 5LPE.

 

[Dark Kaeser]

Não havendo um sítio específico fica aqui porque está relacionado com o tema dos SoC Qualcomm para PC (portátil), se necessário depois move-se

Interview with Alex Katouzian, Qualcomm SVP: Talking Snapdragon, Microsoft, Nuvia, and Discrete Graphics​

IC: If you can perhaps clear something up for me: is the Nuvia team making a single core, or both a big core or a little core? Or is it that they’re dealing fully with the SoC structure into which you add in the connectivity and the graphics?

AK: It’s both, all the above. By that I mean that it's impossible for us to put out a chipset solution as sophisticated as this without having the entire system being taken into consideration. Think of it this way: the CPU by itself is part of the ‘one technology roadmap’, but so is graphics, and other things. Then we're really thinking about bringing a complete system solution to the PC and changing it in such a way that you don't go after the traditional designs. You know, we talked about this before, we're looking for bill of material savings, we're looking at design savings, we're looking at internal routing, we're looking at shell designs, and we’re looking at thermals - the whole thing. So it has to be a complete solution. So they're definitely involved in the whole SoC design, and they're involved in looking at multiple different cores, where it makes sense. Whether it's big cores, little cores, or a combination of how many.

IC: Nuvia’s design will be Arm-based, and the Nuvia team comes from people who built Apple’s M1 and talent from Google. So will that chip compete primarily against Apple because it's ARM-based, or against Intel because it's Windows-based?

AK: The devices that we're going to come out with based on the new CPU design and the new architecture, will compete head on with Apple.

IC: So when you do your comparison charts, you'll be comparing against Apple?

AK: Yes.

IC: Is that because Intel is no longer in the picture? Or is that just because that’s where the market is?

AK: The way we look at it is that we're not going after discrete designs: we're going after an SoC and the architecture that makes the best sense for the PC. Like I said, mobile traits are coming into the PC, and I agree with you that performance wise compared to mobile it’s much higher, it has more power dissipation capability, but we're going to try to make it a lot sleeker and have a lot more mobile based. So our comparison is to a company that can do both types of SoC and bring that capability to the PC, so we're really preparing ourselves for that.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1723...pdragon-microsoft-nuvia-and-discrete-graphics

E o Ian ainda fez uma questão: dado o momento no mercado GPU, não seria possível a Qualcomm escalar a Adreno para fazer um dGPU

IC: Qualcomm has a very efficient graphics architecture in Adreno. It usually performs really well in the mobile SoCs, but we're currently at a time where the discrete GPU market is going bananas, and everything is selling. I would love to see a scaled Adreno GPU, and given that Intel is also coming out with its own, Qualcomm could be an amazing fourth competitor in that space. We would love to get your comments on that, but the key thing is: if you were to do that, what color would it be? AMD is red, Intel is blue, NVIDIA is green, and so is an Adreno discrete GPU going to be gold?

AK: It's hard to say because we don't even have that product! But if you think along the lines of premium, yeah, you know, it would be some shade of gold. But think of it this way: we have to enter the PC market with a very sophisticated design that we've already worked on SoC-wise till now, but we're going to get a boost when it comes to CPU capability. We can scale our GPU capability just like we discussed before, and we have the ability to scale across these devices. So we definitely will have much more performing GPU and CPU cores. Obviously also concentrating on power dissipation, and those ratios have got to be right, so if we pick a design point within the PC, we'll definitely need those requirements. Then we can break off at discrete GPU if the business makes sense for it, but we definitely have the capability to scale to that level and the design capability to produce something in that market. Plus, the hard play is about having much more of an ecosystem. So once we get into the market more heavily, and get more games developed on there for example, and other applications, then, the possibility always existed.

 

[Nemesis11]

Mais um score de Geekbench 5 do Qualcomm Snapdragon 8cx Gen3. Ao contrário de Benchmarks anteriores, onde estava a 2.7 Ghz, este parece estar a 3 Ghz.
8 Cores novamente.

https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/12275276

Mais uma vez, isto é +/- o mesmo do Ryzen 5700U.

 

[Nemesis11]

Mais por curiosidade, que pela parte prática. Uma Máquina Virtual a correr em KVM, em cima de Android 13, no Pixel 6.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492712401262710784

Para quem não conheça, o Pixel 6 é o ultimo telemóvel lançado pela Google.

A partir do momento que se tem o KVM funcional, consegue-se instalar o Windows 11 ARM, numa máquina virtual, no telemóvel.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492754683445669893

 

[Lima08]

Mais por curiosidade, que pela parte prática. Uma Máquina Virtual a correr em KVM, em cima de Android 13, no Pixel 6.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492712401262710784

Para quem não conheça, o Pixel 6 é o ultimo telemóvel lançado pela Google.

A partir do momento que se tem o KVM funcional, consegue-se instalar o Windows 11 ARM, numa máquina virtual, no telemóvel.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492754683445669893

isso mostra 6 core e "30" megas de cache no windows no tele móvel mas o tele móvel é 8 cores ? não percebi

 

[Nemesis11]

Aquilo é uma máquina virtual. A partir daí, tudo o que é reportado ao Sistema Operativo, pode ser manipulado. Mesmo o Sistema operativo, pode não estar a ver correctamente o que é passado pelo hypervisor.
Eu não sei como é que está implementado o KVM no Android 13, nem sei o que está a ser usado para gerir o KVM.

Um bom exemplo naquela imagem é ele reportar 6 Sockets e, mesmo que aqueles printscreens não estivessem a correr no Pixel 6, muito dificilmente estará a correr numa máquina real com 6 Socket.

Dito isto, reportar 6 Cores é normal. O Soc do Pixel 6 tem 8 e facilmente se pode passar 1 a 8 Cores para a Máquina. O tamanho das caches pode ser muita coisa. Pode estar a ser passado isso pelo hypervisor, ou pode ser o Windows que está "confundido". Talvez por estar a ver 6 Sockets.

Só um exemplo muito rápido a exemplificar tudo isto:

Isto é apenas uma Máquina Virtual que alterei de forma rápida. Está a reportar um Xeon Phi, sem Cache L1 e 4 Cores. Não tenho nenhum Xeon Phi e não há nenhum Xeon Phi sem Cache L1 e 4 Cores. O CPU do computador real nem sequer é Intel.

Já agora, enganar o Sistema Operativo numa Máquina Virtual é útil em algumas situações, mas já é algo que não interessa nesta Thread.

 

[Dark Kaeser]

Não é uma novidade uma vez que já tinha sido anunciado, realce para o facto de não ser apenas um portátil, mas ser da linha Thinkpad

Lenovo Announces The ThinkPad X13s Laptop, Powered By Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3​

Focusing on Lenovo's big announcement at MWC 2022, it has launched several new notebooks for 2022, but all eyes are on the ThinkPad X13s. Lenovo, of course, is a large and respected name in the productivity laptop space, so their willingness (or unwillingness) to adopt new CPUs/SoCs is often a good barometer of overall OEM interest in new chips.

Aside from being the first consumer-based notebook powered by the Qualcomm Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3 processor, the ThinkPad X13s has a wide variety of features for users on the go, both focusing on productivity and longevity, all housed inside a 0.53-inch thick frame.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1728...d-x13s-laptop-powered-by-snapdragon-8cx-gen-3

 

[Jiggybear]

Não sou especialista em arquitetura informática nem nada que se pareça, mas depois de ver o que a Apple conseguiu com os M1, acho que ARM é o futuro. Performance eficiente.

 

[Dark Kaeser]

Project Volterra: Microsoft announces Windows 11 on ARM developer kit with Qualcomm SoC​

• Microsoft has unveiled its first Windows on ARM devkit.
• It's powered by a Snapdragon SoC and will be coming later this year.
• It features a built-in NPU, and is similar in shape and size to a Mac mini.

Not much else is known about the hardware at this time, including specs, price, or even a release date. The company says it will share more "at a later date." Windows Central understands that the Surface team built the hardware in partnership with Qualcomm, and that it will ship with a "flagship SoC." This would make it the first and only Windows on ARM developer kit so far to ship with a flagship Snapdragon processor.

For Windows on ARM specifically, Microsoft has announced that its end-to-end software developer kit will be Arm native, with some of the tools launching in preview soon. The Arm-native tool-chain consists of:

• Visual Studio 2022
• Visual Studio Code
• Visual C++
• Modern .NET 6 and Java
• Classic .NET Framework
• Windows Terminal
• Windows Subsystem for Linux
• Windows Subsystem for Android

https://www.windowscentral.com/soft...ows-11-on-arm-developer-kit-with-qualcomm-soc

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1529125945000484865

 

[Dark Kaeser]

O ThinkPad X13s já está oficialmente disponível para compra no site da Lenovo, mas com preço a começar nos 1300$ e não nos 1100$ anunciados em Fevereiro

Lenovo ThinkPad X13s with Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3 is the first ARM-based Thinkpad​

The Lenovo ThinkPad X13S is available now for around $1300 and up, with entry-level configurations featuring 16GB of RAM and 512GB of storage. There’s also optional support for cellular connectivity, with the laptop supporting AT&T and Verizon’s 5G networks.

https://liliputing.com/2022/06/leno...cx-gen-3-is-the-first-arm-based-thinkpad.html

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadx/thinkpad-x13s-13-inch-wos/len101t0019?

 

[erdnagama]

Windows em ARM é um desastre actualmente, nem este nem nenhum PC deste tipo são interessantes.
O panorama do hardware é tão mau, dado que os SOCs são tão fraquinhos, que é impossível sequer saber se o software é minimamente aceitável.

Continuo a aguardar por SOCs capazes que possam alavancar esta parte do mercado.

 

[Roberto1973]

Acho projecto K12 da AMD vai voltar fazer superfície.

 

[Nemesis11]

Windows em ARM é um desastre actualmente, nem este nem nenhum PC deste tipo são interessantes.
O panorama do hardware é tão mau, dado que os SOCs são tão fraquinhos, que é impossível sequer saber se o software é minimamente aceitável.

Continuo a aguardar por SOCs capazes que possam alavancar esta parte do mercado.

O Windows em ARM tem o "problema" de estar limitado a um vendedor de CPUs e ainda por cima, um vendedor que os SOCs actuais não têm grande interesse e não tem uma plataforma para dev que seja barata e fácil de arranjar. A única vantagem é a plataforma poder ser aperfeiçoada lentamente, sem grandes pressões e expectativas por parte do mercado.

Experimentei o Windows 10 e 11 ARM, via "hack", no RPi4 e há melhorias entre o 10 e o 11. Já há binary translations de x86-64, mais programas nativos ARM (nem todos os programas no Windows são nativos ainda), o Office já está quase todo nativo (penso que falta o Visio e o Project), etc, mas como plataforma para o utilizador comum, não tem grande interesse por agora. São poucos os programas, fora os que vêm no Windows, nativos Windows ARM. VLC, 7-zip e pouco mais.

A nível de hardware, não vale a pena olhar para nada da Qualcomm antes de aparecerem os SOCs desenvolvidos pela ex-Nuvia.

 

[Dark Kaeser]

Ainda mais àquele preço. Se o anterior já era mau agora ficou ainda pior.

 

[Nemesis11]

Project Volterra: Microsoft announces Windows 11 on ARM developer kit with Qualcomm SoC​

https://www.windowscentral.com/soft...ows-11-on-arm-developer-kit-with-qualcomm-soc

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1529125945000484865

Disponível hoje.

Available today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 aka Project Volterra​

We are excited to announce the launch of Windows Dev Kit 2023, which is built to help developers create Windows apps easily and efficiently for Arm. We unveiled this device as “Project Volterra” at Build in May 2022. Learn more.

The Windows Dev Kit 2023 is now available to developers in 8 countries: Australia, Canada, China, France, Germany, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States. You can purchase the dev kit here.

Device specifics​

• 32GB LPDDR4x RAM and 512GB fast NVMe storage
• Snapdragon® 8cx Gen 3 compute platform
• Ports: 3x USB-A, 2x USB-C, Mini-Display (HBR2 support), Ethernet (RJ45)
• Made with 20% recycled ocean plastic
• Available in the Microsoft Store

Install Arm-native developer tools​

A fully Arm-native suite of developer tools are available for installing on Windows 11, including:

• Visual Studio 2022 17.4 Preview 2 for Arm64
  This is the first native Arm64 version of Visual Studio available with workloads enabled for desktop development with C++ (for MSBuild-based projects), .NET desktop development, and web development. Additionally our latest preview includes support for Windows SDK and Win App SDK components (Win UI).
• .NET 7 Preview Arm64 SDK
  Native support for Arm64 is available in .NET 6, along with the .NET Framework 4.8.1 runtime and SDK, but that support has been extended in .NET 7. Read more about Arm64 performance improvements in .NET 7.
• Visual Studio Code for Arm
  VS Code has supported an Arm64 architecture since the September 2020 version 1.50 release, including extensions for Remote Development.

Bringing together local compute on the CPU, GPU, and NPU and cloud compute with Azure, including:

• Qualcomm Neural Processing SDK for AI
  Formerly known as the Snapdragon Neural Processing Engine (SNPE), this software accelerated, inference-only runtime engine supports the execution of deep neural networks. Build apps that unlock the power of integrated NPU hardware to accelerate AI/ML workloads without compromising app performance.
• SNPE Execution Provider for ONNX Runtime
  This execution provider makes use of the Qualcomm Snapdragon Neural Processing Engine SDK to enable hardware accelerated execution of deep neural networks.
• Azure Virtual Machines with Ampere Altra Arm-based processors
  Engineered to efficiently run scale-out workloads, web servers, application servers, open-source databases, cloud-native as well as rich .NET applications, Java applications, gaming servers, media servers, and more.

Support for building Arm-native apps and porting existing x64 apps is also available, including:

• Arm64EC
  Arm64EC (“Emulation Compatible”) is a new application binary interface (ABI) enabling you to build new native apps or incrementally transition existing x64 apps to take advantage of the native speed and performance possible with Arm-powered devices, including better power consumption, battery life, and accelerated AI & ML workloads.
• Arm64X
  Arm64X is a new type of binary that can contain both the classic Arm64 code and Arm64EC code together, making it a particularly good fit for middleware or plugins that may be used by both ABIs.

Additional developer tools supported by Windows 11 on Arm, include:

• Windows Subsystem for Linux
  Enabling Linux distributions to be installed on Windows without the overhead of a traditional virtual machine or dual-boot setup.
• Windows Terminal
  A modern way to run multiple command lines side-by-side in tabs or panes, fully customizable with a GPU-accelerated text rendering engine and command palette.
• Windows Package Manager
  Offering a comprehensive package manager solution that consists of a command line tool (winget) and set of services for installing applications that will choose the best available package based on your hardware architecture.
• Microsoft PowerToys
  A set of utilities for power users to tune and streamline their Windows experience for greater productivity, including the FancyZones window manager, a keyboard manager, mouse utilities, PowerRename, and more.
• Windows Subsystem for Android
  Enabling Windows 11 to run Android applications that are available in the Amazon Appstore.

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsde...ay-windows-dev-kit-2023-aka-project-volterra/
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/dev-kit

 

[Dark Kaeser]

Meh... sempre se confirma ser um Snapdragon 8 embora sejam os Gen 3

 

[Nemesis11]

600$ com 32 GB de RAM e 512 GB SSD, não é mau de todo, especialmente para um Dev Kit.

O interior dele:

E o interior do Thinkpad X13 Gen1 com este processador:

Review dele: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenov...e-Qualcomm-Snapdragon-8cx-Gen-3.665008.0.html

O da Microsoft tem um cooler de portátil, mas o X13 é passivo. No entanto, tem um "aparato" de cooling bastante grande.

Without active cooling, the Lenovo ThinkPad X13s is cooled only passively by radiating the heat. Under low load, this works great. However, in the case of full load, which we simulate in this case with Prime95 (since FurMark doesn't work), the Lenovo ThinkPad X13s gets extremely hot. The maximum temperature of 64.4 ºC (148 ºF) on the bottom could even lead to some slight burns. But of course, this extreme stress test scenario cannot be compared to everyday usage. However, it shows us another reason, why the ThinkPad X13s is not suited for demanding tasks.

Os pontos positivos e negativos são os do costume. Interessante por ser passivo, peso baixo, ter 5G e uma duração longa da bateria, mas depois falha em outros pontos importantes.