OnLive - Novo conceito de "consola"

After trying the newly announced OnLive gaming service, I was impressed but skeptical. So I asked its lead creator Steve Perlman nine questions, many of them doubting his project will work against a Wii or without a “Halo.” He replied.

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Multiplayer: One of the first things many gamers will think when they hear about OnLive is that it just can’t work. They’ll worry about lag, about the effects of too many people using the service at once and all sorts of other scenarios that might prevent OnLive games from playing smoothly. You let me put my hands on the service when we met, but that was just one test case. What kind of stress tests have you already put this service through and what can you say to people who doubt this can work as well as you say?
“Some would pull out the Ethernet cable to see if the game stopped, and even then, some didn’t believe it until it was running on their own computer at home on their own DSL or cable modem.”
Steve Perlman, Founder, OnLive: We can understand why they’d be skeptical that something like OnLive works! Frankly, that’s the typical reaction we received when first presenting OnLive to the CTOs of the major game publishers. And, even when the demo was working, some would pull out the Ethernet cable to see if the game stopped, and even then, some didn’t believe it until it was running on their own computer at home on their own DSL or cable modem. In one case, even that wasn’t enough: The CTO had his gamer teenage son try OnLive on his home connection. The kid thought the game was simply playing normally. At that point the CTO said that he was blown away. He would not have thought it was possible, but clearly we had figured out how to do it. That publisher, as well as nine others who also put OnLive “through the ringer” are now showing their games on the GDC show floor. They wouldn’t have done that without thoroughly verifying that OnLive works at least as well as a console, PC and Mac.
And, it’s no accident that OnLive works so well. It took many years of development, testing, and refinement to get it to work through the vast range of Internet hookups in the home, and there are a huge number of particular mechanisms we’ve had to build into the OnLive system to overcome each particular issue we’ve run into. OnLive has been tested in hundreds of homes through the US, through a wide range DSL, cable modem and fiber connections, and through any manner of consumer firewalls, routers, switches. Now, you hook up OnLive and it runs smoothly. But, there is a huge amount of technology behind the scenes making that happen.

MTV Multiplayer: Certainly, you’re not the first people with this idea. Why don’t you think anyone has pulled this off before?
Perlman: No one has pulled it off because it’s an immensely difficult technical and practical execution challenge, involving deep knowledge and experience across many fields. To make OnLive work involved fundamental work in psychophysical science; custom chip, hardware and wireless engineering; complex real-time software — from the lowest- to highest-level, and real-time network engineering down to the sub-packet level. And, it required a deep understanding of business structure in the video game, Internet, hosting, server and consumer electronic industries. Then, finally, it required an enormous amount of just practical execution: testing the system in hundreds of homes and ironing out every wrinkle to make it operate seamlessly.
There are few major corporations, let alone startup companies, with the depth of knowledge required in all of the areas that were required to develop OnLive. And, it is rare to find today corporations or investors with the patience to wait seven years while such an intricate system was developed and refined, particularly given that for many years it was not clear it would ever work.
“We think it is unlikely there will be another system like OnLive anytime soon.”
And, now we’ve met with the top publishers, top broadband operators and top equipment makers, etc., who clearly would have had anything like OnLive brought to their attention. Since no one knows of any other practical system that exists, we presume that no other one does exist. Given the immense multi-disciplinary complexity of OnLive, the time that was required to address the practical execution issues, and the fact we have over 100 patents and patents pending, we think it is unlikely there will be another system like OnLive anytime soon.
MTV Multiplayer: What kind of gamers do you hope this kind of service could attract at launch and how is that guiding which publishers you’re courting now and which game libraries you hope to get into this system?
Perlman: The low cost of the service is a selling point for gamers of all types and skill levels — particularly those who might have been priced out of the previous cycles or simply gave up on trying to keep up with ever-evolving technology. From casual gamers to hardcore, OnLive offers a number of benefits and advantages over existing consoles and services. OnLive introduces games to a video-rich community of a massive scale, that allows them to try, buy, or even spectate the latest games. Our content partners are the biggest names in game publishing — companies like EA, Ubisoft, THQ and Take-Two, who will provide some of their hottest titles, at the same time those games ship to store shelves. The goal is to provide a wide variety of games that will appeal to a broad range of gamers who increasingly expect their entertainment On Demand.

MTV Multiplayer: Continuing in that vein, do you imagine OnLive as a good option for people who feel priced out not just of PC gaming but from even $250 Wii gaming?
“Side-by-side with Wii, yes the OnLive MicroConsole is far less expensive, but it is also the most powerful video game system in the world and constantly evolves in performance.
Perlman: Sure, there is no question that the OnLive platform will have the lowest cost of entry for a new user. But, to be clear, OnLive also will certainly be catering to gamers who are less price sensitive, and are seeking the highest performance games, and also it will be opening up a universe of games to Mac users who, before OnLive, have had a very limited selection.
So, side-by-side with Wii, yes the OnLive MicroConsole is far less expensive, but it is also the most powerful video game system in the world and constantly evolves in performance, and the user can enjoy the same experience on an entry-level PC or Mac. So, we don’t think the comparison will be only on economic terms. People will see the OnLive as a completely different opportunity.
MTV Multiplayer: What PC spec do you expect OnLive to be able to perform at when the service launches? And how do you project that spec to increase over the course of, say, OnLive’s first 12 months. How much more horsepower is the end-user going to feel like they’re getting?
Perlman: OnLive will initially support Windows XP, Windows Vista and Intel-based Macs running OS X. No GPU or fast CPU is required. Entry-level PCs and Macs provide the same experience as high-end PCs and Macs.
The PC or Mac required spec does not change over time. In three years, an entry-level PC bought today will still be able to play the then highest performance OnLive games. We realize this concept is a little hard to wrap your head around, given we have come accustomed to hardware obsolescence for just about any application you use on a PC or Mac. But OnLive is different. OnLive technology evolves in our server centers (in the Cloud), not in your home. The desktop (or MicroConsole) computing requirements remains the same.

MTV Multiplayer: The Xbox had Halo when it came out. A few years ago, the then-struggling Nintendo had Wii Sports with the Wii. It seems that one of the best ways to get gamers to choose a new gaming platform is to hook them with exclusive content. But that doesn’t appear to be part of OnLive’s business model. How can you pull this off without exclusive games that make OnLive a must-purchase?
Perlman: It’s hard to make direct comparisons for gamer motivation for choosing new consoles and “choosing” OnLive. Among consoles, many (but certainly not all) gamers do choose only one, and it is easy to see why: When a console comes out, you have an initial cost outlay of $300-$800, depending on platform and accessories, then you have to hook it up to your TV, download all the upgrades, etc., before you can play one game and see if you like the platform.
With OnLive, there is no upfront cost or hassle: you can try out a demo of any game with the PC or Mac you already by just downloading a browser plug-in that is smaller than Flash, and if you like OnLive and sign up, then we’ll send you an inexpensive MicroConsole for your TV.
“We see it as expanding the market, and indeed, think that many console gamers will use OnLive as well as their consoles.”
So, we don’t see OnLive as an either/or proposition with gamers. We see it as expanding the market, and indeed, think that many console gamers will use OnLive as well as their consoles.
Secondly, OnLive does have “exclusive content” of a sort. For example, we are the only way you can play high-end games like “Crysis Warhead” on a TV or entry-level PC or Mac. Today, only a tiny fraction of the gamer population has the tricked-out gamer PC required to play that game. OnLive is also the only way for Mac users to play a wide range of PC-only games within OS X.
And, in time, there will be very high-performance OnLive-only games that utilize multi-GPU multi-core servers, GigE networks and RAID arrays in the OnLive server center. There will be no home-based systems at all that will be able to run such games. In fact, we’ll be giving a sneak peak of a prototype showing the realism achievable in such games in the press conference and in the booth.

MTV Multiplayer: Refresh my memory: how many seconds (or fractions of a second) will it take from boot-up of OnLive to playing a game on the service that I’ve never played before? Or a demo? Can you calculate that?
“From the point I clicked to start OnLive to the point where a game was starting up was eight seconds.”
Perlman: OnLive takes a few seconds to test your connection, and then it depends on the user of course — how quickly you navigate through the user interface. If a user knows where to go, he or she can start playing any game in a matter of seconds.
I just timed our Beta service running on Vista through my cable modem. From the point I clicked to start OnLive to the point where a game was starting up was eight seconds. But I just clicked on the first game on the list. It might take another couple of seconds if the game you want is lower on the list.
Once OnLive is connected, though, you don’t have that initial connection test, so if you quit a game and start another one, that can happen in one or two seconds, again, primarily limited by your ability to deftly click buttons.
In terms of technical limitations, OnLive switches from one server (e.g. playing a game) to another (e.g. running the user interface or running another game) in 1/60th of a second.
MTV Multiplayer: Where do you expect OnLive to be sold? Not at game stores, right?
Perlman: We’re not going into a lot of detail on that yet. But, the millions of people who own Macs and PCs can immediately access the service on day one, by signing up and downloading about a 1MB client from OnLive.com. We will also allow people to order the MicroConsole from OnLive.com. Additional distribution methods will be disclosed closer to launch.
MTV Multiplayer: Should independent developers look you guys up or are you only working with big publishers?
Perlman: We’re engaging with developers of all sizes. In addition to offering a direct channel from development to distribution, OnLive opens completely new doors for marketing, promotion as well as a seamless way to connect with a large, engaged target audience.
As you will see at GDC, we’ve already got one independent on board: 2D boy. And, we think that the it’s so easy to develop for OnLive — with only one binary to reach PC, Mac and TV — that we will attract a range of developers. Because of the flexibility of the platform, we also expect to see people experimenting with the type of content they deliver—episodic games, perhaps—and pricing.
MTV Multiplayer: Your concept is an exciting one. Do you expect Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo to follow you in this direction of cloud-console-gaming? How soon? Or, if not, why not?
Perlman: The answer really depends on exactly how you define “cloud-console-gaming”. All three companies may argue that their current download-based online services could already be called that. Needless to say, though, they are very different offering than OnLive.
“We have at least 11 years to establish our business before there is a clone.”
If your question is whether one of these companies would be motivated to clone OnLive’s capabilities, and if so, how long would it take:
(1) Whether they are interested in cloning OnLive is a better question to ask them. They all have a deep (multi-billion dollar) vested interest in their current gaming model which (particularly in the case of Sony and Microsoft) will take years to recoup (if ever). That said, they may see an OnLive-type offering as a strategic opportunity, particularly in lieu of what they no doubt contemplate as an enormous investment needed to launch their next generation of console.
(2) If they are interested, whether they can clone OnLive is an easier question to answer. OnLive was an immensely complex engineering effort, and beyond that, it took years of testing in hundreds of homes to make it work seamlessly. Best case, it will take years to clone with a world-class development team. But, beyond that, we expect they’d have a very difficult time getting around OnLive’s patents. Beyond the underlying interactive video compression technology, OnLive’s patents also cover the layers of all the technology built on top of that compression that would be necessary to deliver a practical video game service offering. The first patents expire in 2022, so we have at least 11 years to establish our business before there is a clone.
 
1 - Não acredito.
2 - Não estou interessado.

Tenho dito.
Engraçado, é exactamente a minha maneira de pensar em relação á religião só que aplicar isso neste caso é bastante incoerente, para rejeitar qualquer tipo de inovação tecnológica no mundo dos videojogos das duas uma, ou és muito fanboy ou gostavas de estar ainda a viver em cabanas de palha no meio da floresta.
 
Eu estou entusiasmado com esta tecnologia... e até desejo que tenha sucesso... mas...

Tenho muitas dúvidas em relação a muitas coisas... É esperar para ver :)
 
como foi dito antes isto só deve trabalhar em modo de franchising, ex: um ISP pedia o serviço e o ponha a trabalhar na sua rede ADSL/Cabo/Fibra w/e, isto eliminava o lag totalmente e não esganava os enchangers internacionais.

E a unica forma que eu vejo de isto trabalhar num pais como portugal ou mesmo como outro qualquer da Europa, uma conexão típica Europa>Norte America tem quase sempre 200ms de latencia.
 
eu acho que teriam que aproximar os servidores,por isso para ja este serviço aranca so nos USA.Eles dizem que para os USA com 5 servidores conseguem cobrir o pais...a ver vamos se instalam uns na europa
 
Isso é o que eles dizem, tal como os gajos da eurogamer tem a sua palavra, os gajos do onlive tem a deles, dito isto continuo a achar que não se consegue fazer aquilo que eles falam, pelo menos não como eles dizem.

nem tão pouco deve haver vontade do consumidor, retailer e afins para cooperarem com isto.

Dos retailers certamente que não existe, tal como não existe vontade deles para o steam, agora dos consumidores existe muita vontade, então dos developers ainda mais, tal como no steam eles ganham mais dinheiro, tem menos despesa e neste ainda tinham a vantagem de anti pirataria.

acho que continuará a haver muita resistência porque tal como eu há quem prefira ter o formato físico e tal como eu há quem não goste de pagar mensalmente por algo que devia ser do consumidor.

O steam também não tem formato físico e tem se safado ridiculamente bem, existe muitas pessoas mesmo que não querem saber do formato físico, ou que pelo menos gostam de não ter de andar com este de um lado para o outro.
Quanto a pagar mensalidade por algo que deveria ser do consumidor, sim e podes continuar a não pagar, mas esse algo que devia ser do consumidor custa umas boas centenas de euros, pois ali não estás a pagar mensalidade pelos jogos, estás a pagar mensalidade pelo hardware que estás a alugar, hardware esse que muitas pessoas não teem, e para quem não tem possibilidades de pagar mais de mil euros de hardware para jogar tudo o que é jogo, diria que uma mensalidade (presumindo que não seja exagerada) é um negocio muito bom.

Acho que nem deveria haver duvidas de que se este serviço funcionar bem (ainda tenho muitas duvidas) vai ser um enorme sucesso.
 
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Se há muitos gamers que usam ratos com fios pois acham que um rato wireless introduz lag, o que dizer do lag causado por:

1-Envio do input do utilizador (teclas, rato ou ambos) para a box
2-Envio do input recebido pela box para o servidor de jogo passando pelos servidores do ISP.
3-Recebimento do input pelo servidor e processamento do frame de imagem em HD tendo em conta o cálculo de AI e física do jogo
4-Envio de um frame para o servidor do ISP e em seguida para a box do utilizador
5-Envio do sinal da box para o televisor

Isto terá que ser feito pelo menos 30 vezes por segundo...

Não me parece, se até quando lançam drivers novos ou qualquer outro tipo de produto online os servidores se vão abaixo, imaginem um processo destes.
Além de que realmente os utilizadores deixariam de necessitar de upgrades de hardware mas em contrapartida os fornecedores do serviço teriam que os fazer com frequência encarecendo muito o serviço.

Qualquer comparação com o steam é descabida, o steam é um sistema que permite o download dos conteúdos, todo o processamento é feito na máquina local.
 
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Tenho as minhas dúvidas que a empresa em questão tenha o resultado desejado, mas não tenho qualquer dúvida que mais tarde ou mais cedo o conceito será aproveitado por um grande, como a Microsoft ou a EA. Eliminar numa só jogada as despesas resultantes do comércio a retalho ,os (supostos) prejuízos da venda de jogos em segunda-mão e a questão da pirataria? Isso é um sonho tornado realidade para essas empresas.

E as possibilidades são imensas. Se agora conseguem correr o Crysis num MacBook Air o que dizer quando esta tecnologia chegar aos telemóveis?
 
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A ideia é boa mas falha apenas no facto que é necessário hardware de topo do lado deles por cada ligação, isto vai contra tudo o que é tendencia, já sabemos que o maior super-computador do mundo somos nós ligados entre si (Folding, SETI, etc), porque raio agora vão criar um sistema de processamento centralizado quando a tendência é des-centralizar o processamento, é de loucos, ou esta empresa é a Skynet e está 50 anos a frente de todos ou isto não têm pernas para andar!
 
Tenho mesmo muitas dúvidas. Os problemas vão ser:

-Input lag
-Bandwidth - já muitos ISPs têm limites de trafego e provavelmente não vão achar muita piada a este tipo de serviço, também vão tentar lucrar eheh
-Preço. O investimento vai ter de ser enorme. Obviamente que não vão precisar de um "pc" por cada user, porque não se vão todos ligar ao mesmo tempo. Mas mesmo assim... E a que preço fica para o user final?
-Qualidade. A resolução é baixa, não sei como vão tentar atrair os jogadores PC :|
 
-Preço. O investimento vai ter de ser enorme. Obviamente que não vão precisar de um "pc" por cada user, porque não se vão todos ligar ao mesmo tempo. Mas mesmo assim... E a que preço fica para o user final?

Eu disse hardware de topo por cada ligação, é obvio que me referia a ligação simultanea e não ao numero de users que aderem ao serviço, imagina 1 milhão de utilizadores ao mesmo tempo, agora imagina $500 de custo por cada utilizador, são 500 milhões de dolares só no hardware capaz de correr os jogos, não estou a contabilizar todos os custos para montar o serviço.
 
epah ou estou a ser muito ceptico ou isto está muito proximo daquela data e tal e coiso, se for desculpem lá os spoilers mas n resisto, a ser verdade melhor...
 
Imaginem a capacidade de processamento necessária para o server deles andar a correr uns milhões de jogos ao mesmo tempo, mais a largura de banda de internet para fazer o stream do vídeo em alta resolução para os nossos PCs ou para a caixa deles.
Agora pensem que mesmo a jogar em servers dedicados, que apenas recebem e enviam dados das acções dos jogadores, ás vezes existe lag. Agora imaginem o lag que teríamos a enviar um sinal de vídeo em alta resolução.
Lembrem-se ainda que os servidores deles teriam de codificar o video em tempo real para o enviar para nós.
O vídeo, mesmo em alta resolução, nunca terá a mesma qualidade de imagem que se fosse renderizado e enviado directamente das nossas gráficas para o nosso monitor.

Tudo isto, apenas por questões técnicas, parece treta.

Nem mais. Concordo totalmente, é muito mas mesmo muito poder de processamento e largura de banda.

E não se esqueçam de um pormenor interessante. A IPTV é um serviço relativamente local, e restringido à rede de um operador. Ou seja, o operador não está a pagar largura de banda a ninguém, a rede é dele. Neste caso, os gajos tinha de ter ligações brutais, estariamos a falar de milhões de jogadores a receberem sinal de altissima definição ao mesmo tempo. Os jogadores para receber também tinha de ter ligações brutais. Imaginem horas e horas a receber conteudos 1080p.

Por este serviço a funcionar para um CTO qualquer é muito simples. Por o serviço a funcionar para milhões, durante horas e horas, isso é que eu quero ver.

PS: Já agora pontos interessantes do artigo da Eurogamer

More than that, OnLive overlord Steve Perlmen has said that the latency introduced by the encoder is 1ms. Think about that; he's saying that the OnLive encoder runs at 1000fps. It's one of the most astonishing claims I've ever heard. It's like Ford saying that the new Fiesta's cruising speed is in excess of the speed of sound. To give some idea of the kind of leap OnLive reckons it is delivering, I consulted one of the world's leading specialists in high-end video encoding, and his response to OnLive's claims included such gems as "Bulls***" and "Hahahahaha!" along with a more measured, "I have the feeling that somebody is not telling the entire story here." This is a man whose know-how has helped YouTube make the jump to HD, and whose software is used in video compression applications around the world.

Latency. I can only see one way to make this work and guarantee the necessary quality of service, and that's to adopt an IPTV-style model. The OnLive datacenters will be licensed to ISPs, who will have them at their base of operations. Latency will be massively reduced, the connection will be far more stable, plus the datacenters with the PCs and hardware encoders can be distributed worldwide in a more effective manner. ISPs will be cut into the deal the way that retailers are now with conventional game-purchasing.

But in order to make OnLive perform exactly as claimed right now, the company has to have achieved the following:

* 1. OnLive has mastered video compression that outstrips the best that current technologies can achieve by a vast margin. In short, it has outsmarted the smartest compressionists in the world, and not only that, it's doing it in real-time.
* 2. OnLive's unparalleled grasp of psychophysics means that it has all but eliminated the concept of IP lag during its seven years of "stealth development", succeeding where the best minds in the business have only met with limited success.
* 3. OnLive has developed a range of affordable PC-compatible super-computers and hardware video encoders that are generations beyond anything on the market at the moment.

At some point, Occam's Razor, along with an ounce of basic common sense, has to step in and bring an end to this fantasy,

Tudo o que é dito é verdade.

HunterPT disse:
Nem todos os ISP's metem esses limites, tens muitos ISP's com tráfego ilimitado e sem TS, então com a chegada de fibra vai deixar de ser problema, pois vai deixar de haver necessidade de meter esse tipo de coisas (actualmente só é necessário quem anda a vender o que não tem).
A fibra não te resolve o problema do pearing internacional. A rede de fibra é da ZON ou MEO, mas se o trafego não vem da rede deles, eles precisam comprar largura de banda (tal como tu compras a eles). Ou seja, nem é um problema de sobrecarregar a rede local, é os ISPs terem de fazer upgrade às suas ligações internacionais.

O pior de tudo é o input lag. É mexeres o rato, e teres lag na resposta entre o rato e o boneco no ecrã. Com o lag normal as pessoas ainda lidam relativamente bem, agora com input lag.....é péssimo. 10 milisegundos é algo brutal em termos de input lag e estes gajos dizem que conseguem menos através duma rede, com todo o processamento envolvido? Bullshit. Isto é um scam para sacar dinheiro a investidores e desaparecer para um país sem extradição.
 
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Eu disse hardware de topo por cada ligação, é obvio que me referia a ligação simultanea e não ao numero de users que aderem ao serviço, imagina 1 milhão de utilizadores ao mesmo tempo, agora imagina $500 de custo por cada utilizador, são 500 milhões de dolares só no hardware capaz de correr os jogos, não estou a contabilizar todos os custos para montar o serviço.

Por acaso não estava a comentar o teu post, estava só a dizer na generalidade.

As contas são muito dificeis de fazer - por um lado os pcs não têm de ser assim tão potentes (a resolução a que correm os jogos é baixa) e eles vão (se isto for/fosse para a frente) ter descontos na compra de hardware. Resta saber quanto custa para fazer o encoding mágico, de que hardware eles necessitam. De qualquer das maneiras, ainda é muito PC a comprar...
 
E as grandes produtoras associadas a este projecto,estamos a falas das maiores a nivel mundial,duvido que se entrassem assim para o projecto que fosse scam,eles nem iriam testar o serviço nem nada...qualquer ze da esquina chega aos escritorios da electronics arts e faz isso...
 
E as grandes produtoras associadas a este projecto,estamos a falas das maiores a nivel mundial,duvido que se entrassem assim para o projecto que fosse scam,eles nem iriam testar o serviço nem nada...qualquer ze da esquina chega aos escritorios da electronics arts e faz isso...

Mas de que forma é que entraram para o projecto? Existe algum tipo de apoio ou apenas disponibilizaram os jogos para serem "vendidos" através do OnLive?
 
Nao sei se investiram dinheiro no projecto,mas de qualquer ter a marca associada a uma trafulhice nao seria muito boa ideia,devem ter testado o serviço pelo menos...
 
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